Differences
This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.
| Both sides previous revisionPrevious revisionNext revision | Previous revision | ||
| techtalk:ref:oil10 [2022/08/15 20:26] – [Wet Sumping] hippysmack | techtalk:ref:oil10 [2024/01/28 16:59] (current) – [Sit Sumpimg] hippysmack | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Line 62: | Line 62: | ||
| * **Overfilling the oil tank can increase the possibility of wet sumping**: | * **Overfilling the oil tank can increase the possibility of wet sumping**: | ||
| * If you fill the tank (improperly), | * If you fill the tank (improperly), | ||
| - | * **Lower oil level in the tank after a hard ride**. \\ A good way to tell if your engine is wetsumping (during a hard ride) is to check the oil level right after a leisurely ride. ((NRHS Sales of the XLFORUM | + | * **Lower oil level in the tank after a hard ride**. \\ A good way to tell if your engine is wetsumping (during a hard ride) is to check the oil level right after a leisurely ride. ((NRHS Sales of the XLFORUM |
| * **Oil filter stopped up or restricted (57-85)**. | * **Oil filter stopped up or restricted (57-85)**. | ||
| * The oil filter on 85< engines is fed from the oil return side of the oil pump. | * The oil filter on 85< engines is fed from the oil return side of the oil pump. | ||
| * A clogged oil filter not allowing oil to return to the oil tank will leave too much oil in the crankcase and cause it to be blown out the breather vent. | * A clogged oil filter not allowing oil to return to the oil tank will leave too much oil in the crankcase and cause it to be blown out the breather vent. | ||
| * **A sudden loss of power while riding**. \\ See [[techtalk: | * **A sudden loss of power while riding**. \\ See [[techtalk: | ||
| - | * After some spirited riding and high RPM passing of cages, particularly riding 2up, the power is just not where it should be. ((ed_in_az of the XLFORUM | + | * After some spirited riding and high RPM passing of cages, particularly riding 2up, the power is just not where it should be. ((ed_in_az of the XLFORUM |
| - | * **Difficulty turning the engine over when it's hot**. ((NRHS Sales of the XLFORUM | + | * **Difficulty turning the engine over when it's hot**. ((NRHS Sales of the XLFORUM |
| * Just think about trying to push a piston downwards through a pool of oil. | * Just think about trying to push a piston downwards through a pool of oil. | ||
| - | |||
| ====== Clearing the Sump of Excess Oil ====== | ====== Clearing the Sump of Excess Oil ====== | ||
| Line 80: | Line 79: | ||
| * (57-76 models only) are equipped with a sump drain plug under the engine case. \\ This plug (near the seam between the cases) is known for stripped threads or cracks in the case around the plug once removed. | * (57-76 models only) are equipped with a sump drain plug under the engine case. \\ This plug (near the seam between the cases) is known for stripped threads or cracks in the case around the plug once removed. | ||
| * 77 and up models do not have a dedicated sump drain. \\ There is a drain plug under the engine but it is a rifling hole to connect the sump scavenge hole to the oil pump scavenge galley. \\ Removing this plug will most likely drain some oil but it will not empty the sump of oil. \\ The oil runs uphill from the sump area to the oil pump so the elevation doesn' | * 77 and up models do not have a dedicated sump drain. \\ There is a drain plug under the engine but it is a rifling hole to connect the sump scavenge hole to the oil pump scavenge galley. \\ Removing this plug will most likely drain some oil but it will not empty the sump of oil. \\ The oil runs uphill from the sump area to the oil pump so the elevation doesn' | ||
| - | |||
| ====== Wet Sumping Due to High Revs ====== | ====== Wet Sumping Due to High Revs ====== | ||
| Line 87: | Line 85: | ||
| * Wet sumping occurs when the crankcase fills up with oil. The crank has to turn in an oil bath when it's really designed to run in open air. The crank running thru the oil heats it up and adds lots of bubbles. It also really cuts down on the available power. | * Wet sumping occurs when the crankcase fills up with oil. The crank has to turn in an oil bath when it's really designed to run in open air. The crank running thru the oil heats it up and adds lots of bubbles. It also really cuts down on the available power. | ||
| * The scavenger pump picks up the oil and sends it to the oil tank. The hotter the oil, and the more air bubbles in the oil, the harder it is for the scavenger pump to move the oil. So, the oil collects in the crankcase even more. | * The scavenger pump picks up the oil and sends it to the oil tank. The hotter the oil, and the more air bubbles in the oil, the harder it is for the scavenger pump to move the oil. So, the oil collects in the crankcase even more. | ||
| - | * The symptoms are sudden dwindling of power and the oil fogging out of the (breather) vent. ((iNSaNeSHaNe of the XLFORUM | + | * The symptoms are sudden dwindling of power and the oil fogging out of the (breather) vent. ((iNSaNeSHaNe of the XLFORUM |
| - | * When sumping, it may feek like the motor sort of seized up. ((BWP 5p of the XLFORUM | + | * When sumping, it may feek like the motor sort of seized up. ((BWP 5p of the XLFORUM |
| * The '04 and up Sportsters have had the oil return system redesigned. There are several people having heat and oil consumption issues with 883-1200+ conversions and there are stock bikes having heat and oil consumption issues as well. The 883's and 1200's seem to wet sump worse than years before 2004. Even prior to 2004 Sportster engines were known to wet sump badly under high rpm conditions. | * The '04 and up Sportsters have had the oil return system redesigned. There are several people having heat and oil consumption issues with 883-1200+ conversions and there are stock bikes having heat and oil consumption issues as well. The 883's and 1200's seem to wet sump worse than years before 2004. Even prior to 2004 Sportster engines were known to wet sump badly under high rpm conditions. | ||
| * The '04 and up bikes are having issues with the return from the heads to the crankcase. The pressure from the crankcase is forced UP thru the passages and the push rod covers to go out the head breathers. This impedes the oil trying to go down. The oil sits in the head longer collecting more heat and getting thinner. Eventually, the oil pools in the head deep enough to cover the valve seals which are not designed to be submerged in oil. The piston sucks the thinned and hot oil thru the valve seal and guide during the intake stroke causing the engine to burn excessive amounts of oil. | * The '04 and up bikes are having issues with the return from the heads to the crankcase. The pressure from the crankcase is forced UP thru the passages and the push rod covers to go out the head breathers. This impedes the oil trying to go down. The oil sits in the head longer collecting more heat and getting thinner. Eventually, the oil pools in the head deep enough to cover the valve seals which are not designed to be submerged in oil. The piston sucks the thinned and hot oil thru the valve seal and guide during the intake stroke causing the engine to burn excessive amounts of oil. | ||
| - | * It is a chain of events that leads to the oil usage symptom. The high heat of the oil also contributes to the problem and that too is caused by the wet sumping. It also will take a bunch of hp on the dyno and on the street as the crank tries to push through solid oil. ((NRHS Sales http:// | + | * It is a chain of events that leads to the oil usage symptom. The high heat of the oil also contributes to the problem and that too is caused by the wet sumping. It also will take a bunch of hp on the dyno and on the street as the crank tries to push through solid oil. ((NRHS Sales https://www.xlforum.net/ |
| * People have noticed that the '04 and up engines are running much hotter after conversions. Deimus came up with a fix in another thread that may improve the oil flow from the heads to the crankcase. The oil stays cooler, the scavenger pump moves more oil and the problem seems to get better. | * People have noticed that the '04 and up engines are running much hotter after conversions. Deimus came up with a fix in another thread that may improve the oil flow from the heads to the crankcase. The oil stays cooler, the scavenger pump moves more oil and the problem seems to get better. | ||
| * He basically blocks off the head breathers, and then vents the crankcase thru the cam box with a check valve to the atmosphere. This makes it easier for the oil to move down the oil passages and the push rod covers, and helps the scavenger pump move the oil because on the down stroke, the pistons then aid the oil moving from the crankcase to the cam box. The check valve makes sure that a small vacuum is kept on the cam box which further aides the whole process. ((blacksmith wills of the XLFORUM)) | * He basically blocks off the head breathers, and then vents the crankcase thru the cam box with a check valve to the atmosphere. This makes it easier for the oil to move down the oil passages and the push rod covers, and helps the scavenger pump move the oil because on the down stroke, the pistons then aid the oil moving from the crankcase to the cam box. The check valve makes sure that a small vacuum is kept on the cam box which further aides the whole process. ((blacksmith wills of the XLFORUM)) | ||
| - | // What are the causes, symptoms and affects of wet sumping? // ((Article | + | // What are the causes, symptoms and affects of wet sumping? // ((thread |
| Wetsumping (at sustained high RPM) is a condition when the oil pump isn't removing the oil as fast as it's feeding it. \\ | Wetsumping (at sustained high RPM) is a condition when the oil pump isn't removing the oil as fast as it's feeding it. \\ | ||
| - | If the cam box fills with oil, it comes out the breather and right to your air cleaner. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM | + | If the cam box fills with oil, it comes out the breather and right to your air cleaner. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM |
| The foregoing addresses the affects of wetsumping with the engine running. \\ | The foregoing addresses the affects of wetsumping with the engine running. \\ | ||
| - | Later engines are not competition engines. Maybe the earlier Sportsters were, but those days are long gone. ((chevelle of the XLFORUM | + | Later engines are not competition engines. Maybe the earlier Sportsters were, but those days are long gone. ((chevelle of the XLFORUM |
| It's been a chronic issue on XL's for years, happens on the 5-speed bikes as well as the 4-speeds and the ironheads. \\ | It's been a chronic issue on XL's for years, happens on the 5-speed bikes as well as the 4-speeds and the ironheads. \\ | ||
| But often on the head breather models (91-up), you never know like you do on earlier bikes with the breather on the cam box (pre 91). \\ | But often on the head breather models (91-up), you never know like you do on earlier bikes with the breather on the cam box (pre 91). \\ | ||
| - | * Wetsumping can also be attributed to the //Density// of the air / oil mix in the crankcase. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM | + | * Wetsumping can also be attributed to the //Density// of the air / oil mix in the crankcase. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM |
| * The higher the density (//not volume//) of the fluid (air / oil mix), the more it drags on the rotating parts it contacts. | * The higher the density (//not volume//) of the fluid (air / oil mix), the more it drags on the rotating parts it contacts. | ||
| * As the density increases so does the fluid drag it imposes on the rotating parts (read flywheel assembly). | * As the density increases so does the fluid drag it imposes on the rotating parts (read flywheel assembly). | ||
| Line 109: | Line 107: | ||
| * Example: If they are the same size (volume), what takes less power? | * Example: If they are the same size (volume), what takes less power? | ||
| * Stirring a cup of coffee or stirring a coffee milkshake? It's the one that's less dense. | * Stirring a cup of coffee or stirring a coffee milkshake? It's the one that's less dense. | ||
| - | * So now we know that less drag = more horsepower and the air is the medium that gets the oil out of the cases. \\ The ' | + | * So now we know that less drag = more horsepower and the air is the medium that gets the oil out of the cases. \\ The ' |
| - | The late model bikes can easily wet sump if ridden aggressively on the street, however. ((maru of the XLFORUM | + | The late model bikes can easily wet sump if ridden aggressively on the street, however. ((maru of the XLFORUM |
| And they' | And they' | ||
| The results are dramatic when it happens. It is not anything like a barely noticeable loss in performance. \\ | The results are dramatic when it happens. It is not anything like a barely noticeable loss in performance. \\ | ||
| Line 122: | Line 120: | ||
| ===== aswracing on Rubbermount Wetsumping at High Revs: ===== | ===== aswracing on Rubbermount Wetsumping at High Revs: ===== | ||
| - | |||
| - | |||
| < | < | ||
| - | * Sportsters are notorious for having problems with scavenging. Not so much on low rpm steet bikes, but racers have fought this problem for years. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM | + | * Sportsters are notorious for having problems with scavenging. Not so much on low rpm steet bikes, but racers have fought this problem for years. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM |
| | | ||
| | | ||
| Line 135: | Line 131: | ||
| * Take a look at a set of S&S cases sometime. \\ They have a reed valve isolating the flywheel compartment from the rest of the crankcase. \\ The oil pump scavenge inlet is on the other side of that reed valve from the pistons. \\ The result is that the inlet to the pump never sees negative crankcase pressure caused by the pistons moving up. \\ We have zero, zilch, nada oil system issues with race motors that use S&S cases. \\ We can run'em as hard as we want, with whatever rings we want, they never wet sump. | * Take a look at a set of S&S cases sometime. \\ They have a reed valve isolating the flywheel compartment from the rest of the crankcase. \\ The oil pump scavenge inlet is on the other side of that reed valve from the pistons. \\ The result is that the inlet to the pump never sees negative crankcase pressure caused by the pistons moving up. \\ We have zero, zilch, nada oil system issues with race motors that use S&S cases. \\ We can run'em as hard as we want, with whatever rings we want, they never wet sump. | ||
| - | **S& | + | **S& |
| Here's the S&S solution to the wet sumping issue. \\ | Here's the S&S solution to the wet sumping issue. \\ | ||
| See the reed valve? \\ | See the reed valve? \\ | ||
| Line 142: | Line 138: | ||
| This works 100%. \\ | This works 100%. \\ | ||
| - | |{{: | + | |{{: |
| * In '98, in recognition of the issue, the motor company made a pretty significant change on street bikes. \\ The oil pump was given a larger scavenge section, and also an inlet inside the cam box. \\ The cam box drain to the crankcase was also blocked off. \\ The idea was to put less oil into the crankcase and give more scavenge capacity to the whole system. \\ It helped, but high rpm race motors still had the problem. | * In '98, in recognition of the issue, the motor company made a pretty significant change on street bikes. \\ The oil pump was given a larger scavenge section, and also an inlet inside the cam box. \\ The cam box drain to the crankcase was also blocked off. \\ The idea was to put less oil into the crankcase and give more scavenge capacity to the whole system. \\ It helped, but high rpm race motors still had the problem. | ||
| Line 168: | Line 164: | ||
| ====== Sit Sumpimg ====== | ====== Sit Sumpimg ====== | ||
| + | This is simply oil from the tank draining slowly back down into the crankcase while the bike is parked for any length of time (and common to all 57 and up Sportsters). ((Hopper of the XLFORUM https:// | ||
| + | |||
| + | The most notable symptom of sit sumping is a loss of oil in the oil tank after the bike sits for a while. \\ | ||
| + | This is where some make the mistake of adding oil to a cold oil tank to get the level between the hashes on the stick. \\ | ||
| + | Adding oil to a cold motor is never a good idea. [[techtalk: | ||
| + | |||
| + | There isn't much oil pressure on the feed side of the oil check with the motor not running. \\ | ||
| + | For example using Mobile 1 V-twin 20w50, app head pressure at the oil pump was calculated to be just less than 1/4 PSI on a 98 1200S. \\ | ||
| + | This figure will change slightly depending on your current altitude above sea level, oil density and height of oil in the tank. But just for argument sake.. \\ | ||
| + | And subtracting say 60-70% of that going back up to the oil filter pad leaves very little pressure against the oil check. \\ | ||
| + | [[techtalk: | ||
| + | The OEM spring behind the check ball keeps pressure at 4-6 PSI against the ball to it's seat according to the manuals. \\ | ||
| + | And doing the math, there should be less pressure on the incoming side of the check ball than spring seat pressure. \\ | ||
| + | Meaning there shouldn' | ||
| + | However, we know oil will leak down into the motor during shut down and for reasons below or more. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | When you start the engine, the excess oil in the crankcase can end up being fired out the breather(s), | ||
| + | It doesn' | ||
| **Known causes of sit sumping during engine down time**: \\ | **Known causes of sit sumping during engine down time**: \\ | ||
| - | This is simply oil from the tank draining slowly back down into the crankcase while the bike is parked for any length of time (and common to all 57 and up Sportsters). ((Hopper of the XLFORUM http:// | ||
| - | When you start the engine, the excess oil in the crankcase can end up being fired out the breather(s), | ||
| * **Oil Pump**: | * **Oil Pump**: | ||
| - | * Worn / damaged oil pump scavenge gears or gerotors (respectively). \\ The oil pump can't return as much oil to the oil tank as it is receiving from the feed side of the pump. | + | * Worn / damaged oil pump housing / parts. |
| - | * Damaged teeth or broken gear keys can stop the movement of the teeth thus stopping the scavenge side from working. \\ It's entirely possible for the feed side to work with the scavenge side not working. \\ (but that won't last long without something detrimental happening) | + | * Clearances in the pump can widen over time and allow oil to seep into the motor from the oil tank. |
| - | * Worn / damaged seals (or plates respectively) | + | * Worn / damaged seals (or plates respectively). Gravity pressure is always present on the feed side of the pump. \\ If the seals are compromised, |
| - | * **Check Ball / Check Valve**: \\ All Sportsters have some sort of an oil check system in place. \\ The check ball can be thought of as the on / off valve for oil supply into the engine. \\ On 57-85 engines, the check is in the oil pump and on 86 and up engines, the check is in the oil filter pad. \\ The main objective of the oil check is to close the oil passage | + | * **Check Ball / Check Valve**: \\ All Sportsters have some sort of an oil check system in place. \\ The check ball can be thought of as the on / off valve for oil supply into the engine. \\ On 57-85 engines, the check is in the oil pump and on 86-up engines, the check is in the oil filter pad. \\ The main objective of the oil check is to keep the oil in the tank from entering the motor during shutdown |
| - | * The 57-76 check ball seat in the oil pump body can get dirty and / or pitted from usage and debris. | + | * The 57-76 steel check ball seat in the oil pump body can get dirty and / or pitted from usage and debris. |
| - | * The spring (whether check ball or valve) can break or weaken which won't push the unit against the seat properly. \\ Without adequate seat pressure, oil will bypass into the engine. | + | * The 86-E87 |
| * **Breather Gear (57-76 engines): | * **Breather Gear (57-76 engines): | ||
| - | * 57-76 engines can sit sump by way of oil in the gearcase dripping into the crankcase through the window in the breather gear. \\ If oil gets into the crankcase high enough to reach the transfer valve, it'll spill over into the primary compartment. \\ Read more about the [[techtalk: | + | * 57-76 engines can sit sump by way of oil in the gearcase dripping into the crankcase through the window in the breather gear. \\ If oil gets into the crankcase high enough to reach the transfer valve, it'll spill over into the primary compartment. \\ Read more about the [[techtalk: |
| + | * **Oil Filter Adapter (1986-up engines):** The filter adapter is a 2-way threaded union installed into the filter pad. | ||
| + | * Leaking filter adapter threads. | ||
| + | * Loose filter adapter. ((RDHenley of the XLFORUM)) \\ The hex nut in the middle of the adapter should be installed tight against the housing and torque' | ||
| The check valve is spring loaded. Debris can lodge in the spring seat and keep it open. \\ | The check valve is spring loaded. Debris can lodge in the spring seat and keep it open. \\ | ||
| Line 187: | Line 202: | ||
| |77-E87 check valve ((photo by Hippysmack))|Check valve in 77-85 oil pump ((photo by Hippysmack))|Check valve in 86-E87 filter pad ((photo by Hippysmack))| | |77-E87 check valve ((photo by Hippysmack))|Check valve in 77-85 oil pump ((photo by Hippysmack))|Check valve in 86-E87 filter pad ((photo by Hippysmack))| | ||
| |{{: | |{{: | ||
| + | \\ | ||
| - | Even the Teflon ball had a design flaw. The ball can have a variance in landing on the seat position depending on forces to and fro. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM | + | Even the Teflon ball had a design flaw. The ball can have a variance in landing on the seat position depending on forces to and fro. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM |
| A small particle of debris may be lodged at the seat position of the check ball keeping the passage open. \\ | A small particle of debris may be lodged at the seat position of the check ball keeping the passage open. \\ | ||
| The check ball may have rings formed on it at the seat position by the seating action itself over time. \\ | The check ball may have rings formed on it at the seat position by the seating action itself over time. \\ | ||
| Line 197: | Line 213: | ||
| In the first pic below, you can see a slight ring on the left side where the ball was seating. That ball was definitely seating with the joint touching the seat in spots. \\ | In the first pic below, you can see a slight ring on the left side where the ball was seating. That ball was definitely seating with the joint touching the seat in spots. \\ | ||
| - | | L87-90 Check Ball ((photos by Hippysmack)) | + | | L87-90 Check Ball ((photos by Hippysmack)) |
| |{{: | |{{: | ||
| + | |||
| + | \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | The 92-up Teflon ball does have a " | ||
| + | The longer the ball sits against the adapter, a ring indention can get impressed into the ball where it seats. \\ | ||
| + | The indention on the ball is totally dependent on the angle at which the individual spring rests on a regular basis. \\ | ||
| + | So that ring may be different on another bike depending on how long the ball has been installed and exactly how the individual spring lays at rest. \\ | ||
| + | Used long enough, the indention can " | ||
| + | In that case, the ball SHOULD rest back inside that mushroomed area (which may or may not leak, depending). \\ | ||
| + | But that also may result in the ball getting pushed further toward the filter adapter, lessening spring pressure on the ball. \\ | ||
| + | And the more it mushrooms, the less back tension you'll get from the spring. \\ | ||
| + | Low tension from the spring can result in oil seeping past the ball. | ||
| + | \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | This one on a 2005 Sportster has the ring indention but it has not mushroomed and does seal. \\ | ||
| + | {{: | ||
| + | |||
| + | \\ | ||
