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techtalk:ref:oil20 [2022/09/10 02:52] hippysmack [Oil Tank Pressure] |
techtalk:ref:oil20 [2023/12/26 21:42] (current) hippysmack |
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| See also, [[techtalk:ref:oil21#oil_tank_head_pressure|Oil Tank Head Pressure]] in the Sportsterpedia. \\ | See also, [[techtalk:ref:oil21#oil_tank_head_pressure|Oil Tank Head Pressure]] in the Sportsterpedia. \\ | ||
| - | There should not be any noticeable pressure in the oil tank due to the generated pressure being vented back into the cam chest. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5736179#post5736179)) \\ | + | There should not be any noticeable pressure in the oil tank due to the generated pressure being vented back into the cam chest. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/183021-1986-90-evo-sportsters-what-every-owner-should-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/page19#post4283694)) \\ |
| - | Because you can't physically pump more oil out of your motor than you pump in, the larger return pumps air also. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3876872#post3876872)) \\ | + | Because you can't physically pump more oil out of your motor than you pump in, the larger return pumps air also. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/133153-side-bag-oil-filter#post2841794)) \\ |
| (in addition to the return oil in order to make up the volume difference). \\ | (in addition to the return oil in order to make up the volume difference). \\ | ||
| You will see this if you remove the cap off the oil tank and start the motor. \\ | You will see this if you remove the cap off the oil tank and start the motor. \\ | ||
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| If the cam chest is holding pressure, then your breather valve(s) can not be venting properly. \\ | If the cam chest is holding pressure, then your breather valve(s) can not be venting properly. \\ | ||
| - | Bottom line is that if the vent system is working properly, you shouldn't have excessive pressure build up in the oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87313)) \\ | + | Bottom line is that if the vent system is working properly, you shouldn't have excessive pressure build up in the oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/40457-whoa-oil-tank-vomits-oil?t=87313)) \\ |
| **Conditions where oil seeps or spews from the oil tank include**; \\ | **Conditions where oil seeps or spews from the oil tank include**; \\ | ||
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| * **Blocked / stopped up crankcase breather vent**. | * **Blocked / stopped up crankcase breather vent**. | ||
| * With blocked or non-working breather(s), engine performance will also suffer. | * With blocked or non-working breather(s), engine performance will also suffer. | ||
| - | * **Too much oil in the engine, oil tank or both**. ((Mike'sXL883 of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2071954&highlight=oil+tank+pressure)) | + | * **Too much oil in the engine, oil tank or both**. ((Mike'sXL883 of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/efi-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2007-and-up/195584-oil-tank-building-presure-blew-out-dip-stick?t=2071954&highlight=oil+tank+pressure)) |
| * Check your FSM or owners manual for the proper amount of oil to add. | * Check your FSM or owners manual for the proper amount of oil to add. | ||
| * Sportsters are known for wet sumping (condition where oil from the tank seeps into the engine while not running). | * Sportsters are known for wet sumping (condition where oil from the tank seeps into the engine while not running). | ||
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| * **Oil lines not routed to the correct fittings**. | * **Oil lines not routed to the correct fittings**. | ||
| * If you've removed or replaced your oil lines, double check that they are connected to the right fittings. | * If you've removed or replaced your oil lines, double check that they are connected to the right fittings. | ||
| - | * **Replacing the hollow head breather bolts for regular ones**. ((zrunnerz of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=210480&highlight=oil+tank+spewed)) | + | * **Replacing the hollow head breather bolts for regular ones**. ((zrunnerz of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/50454-i-could-use-some-help-on-this-oil-cap-popping-off?t=210480&highlight=oil+tank+spewed)) |
| * On 91-up engines, installing a regular bolt in place of the OEM hollow bolts can cause this issue. | * On 91-up engines, installing a regular bolt in place of the OEM hollow bolts can cause this issue. | ||
| * That would block crankcase pressure up in the engine and cause degradation of engine performance. | * That would block crankcase pressure up in the engine and cause degradation of engine performance. | ||
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| * All spin on oil filters have a pressure relief valve built into them. | * All spin on oil filters have a pressure relief valve built into them. | ||
| * It is designed to still deliver (unfiltered) oil to the engine in the case of blockage of the filter media at no extra pressure increase. | * It is designed to still deliver (unfiltered) oil to the engine in the case of blockage of the filter media at no extra pressure increase. | ||
| - | * **Oil tank blew up in cold weather**. ((Screw Loose Dan of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2008472&highlight=oil+tank+spewed)) | + | * **Oil tank blew up in cold weather**. ((Screw Loose Dan of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/efi-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2007-and-up/188639-oil-reservoir-blew-up-this-morning?t=2008472&highlight=oil+tank+spewed)) |
| * 04-up models have plastic oil tanks. The belief is that some moisture gets frozen in the vent line on 04-09 tanks causing the rupture. | * 04-up models have plastic oil tanks. The belief is that some moisture gets frozen in the vent line on 04-09 tanks causing the rupture. | ||
| * It's a plastic tank so it is not going to be anything like a pressure cooker if it does happen, just messy. | * It's a plastic tank so it is not going to be anything like a pressure cooker if it does happen, just messy. | ||
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| * In 2010, the MoCo put a 10 psi relief valve in the oil tank (presumably to prevent this sort of issue). | * In 2010, the MoCo put a 10 psi relief valve in the oil tank (presumably to prevent this sort of issue). | ||
| * The relief valve will help prevent having to replace the oil tank. | * The relief valve will help prevent having to replace the oil tank. | ||
| - | * The cause for plastic oil tanks leaking has been discussed in the XLForum. [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=74331|See this link]] to that discussion. We may have discovered the root cause. \\ Also see [[techtalk:ref:oil20#up_oil_tank_leak_issue|2004-Up Oil Tank Leak Issue]] below for the bulk of that conversation. | + | * The cause for plastic oil tanks leaking has been discussed in the XLForum. [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/rubber-mount-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2004-2006/37658-new-oil-tank?t=74331|See this link]] to that discussion. We may have discovered the root cause. \\ Also see [[techtalk:ref:oil20#up_oil_tank_leak_issue|2004-Up Oil Tank Leak Issue]] below for the bulk of that conversation. |
| * This has happened to a handful of XLFORUM members (statistically, a pretty small number). | * This has happened to a handful of XLFORUM members (statistically, a pretty small number). | ||
| * But there are plenty of riders who have ridden in below freezing temperatures that haven't had a problem. | * But there are plenty of riders who have ridden in below freezing temperatures that haven't had a problem. | ||
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| \\ | \\ | ||
| - | Since it's not the oil pump scavenger's job to separate the oil/air mist, both crankcase pressure and oil end up in the oil tank. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5736179#post5736179)) \\ | + | Since it's not the oil pump scavenger's job to separate the oil/air mist, both crankcase pressure and oil end up in the oil tank. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/183021-1986-90-evo-sportsters-what-every-owner-should-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/page19#post4283694)) \\ |
| - | So one function of the oil tank is to allow for air to separate out of the oil once there. ((Four Speed of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1971026&page=27)) \\ | + | So one function of the oil tank is to allow for air to separate out of the oil once there. ((Four Speed of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/183021-1986-90-evo-sportsters-what-every-owner-should-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/page27?t=1971026&page=27)) \\ |
| The oil falls to the bottom while the air separates from the oil and goes into the tank vent back to the crankcase. \\ | The oil falls to the bottom while the air separates from the oil and goes into the tank vent back to the crankcase. \\ | ||
| From there, the air gets circulated out the engine breather vent(s) and back into the intake to burn off hydrocarbons. \\ | From there, the air gets circulated out the engine breather vent(s) and back into the intake to burn off hydrocarbons. \\ | ||
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| ==== Removing the Oil Cap with the Engine Running ==== | ==== Removing the Oil Cap with the Engine Running ==== | ||
| - | Removing the oil cap on a hot idling engine (so far rigid S models only), may lower engine speed if the breather valve(s) aren't working properly. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5763694#post5763694)) \\ | + | Removing the oil cap on a hot idling engine (so far rigid S models only), may lower engine speed if the breather valve(s) aren't working properly. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/197307-sportster-crankcase-pressure-engine-breathing-wetsumping-and-mods/page7#post4319777)) \\ |
| An example on a 98 1200S with oil temp 210°F, idle was raised to 1200 RPM and 700 RPM was lost. \\ | An example on a 98 1200S with oil temp 210°F, idle was raised to 1200 RPM and 700 RPM was lost. \\ | ||
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| The engine responds at idle from the higher load on the wheels. \\ | The engine responds at idle from the higher load on the wheels. \\ | ||
| Read more on [[techtalk:ref:engmech04#fluid_drag|Fluid Drag]] above. \\ | Read more on [[techtalk:ref:engmech04#fluid_drag|Fluid Drag]] above. \\ | ||
| - | |||
| ==== Venting the Oil Tank ==== | ==== Venting the Oil Tank ==== | ||
| - | |||
| The oil tank is by design, vented to the cam chest and out the engine breather vent(s). | The oil tank is by design, vented to the cam chest and out the engine breather vent(s). | ||
| Neither the oil cap nor the oil tank should be vented without a one way check valve. \\ | Neither the oil cap nor the oil tank should be vented without a one way check valve. \\ | ||
| The tank is vented to the cam chest on purpose to remove condensate (that gets pumped in) from the oil tank out the single one way engine breather valve. \\ | The tank is vented to the cam chest on purpose to remove condensate (that gets pumped in) from the oil tank out the single one way engine breather valve. \\ | ||
| Venting the oil tank \ cap also will negatively influence crankcase pressure by letting in extra air. \\ | Venting the oil tank \ cap also will negatively influence crankcase pressure by letting in extra air. \\ | ||
| - | 1/2 of the return flow is air because the return pump is twice as big as the feed pump. ((ryder rick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1904589&page=4)) \\ | + | 1/2 of the return flow is air because the return pump is twice as big as the feed pump. ((ryder rick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/177244-oil-pressure-problems/page4?t=1904589&page=4)) \\ |
| That air is full of condensate. A slightly negative (to atmospheric) pressure in the tank facilitates vaporization of the condensate. \\ | That air is full of condensate. A slightly negative (to atmospheric) pressure in the tank facilitates vaporization of the condensate. \\ | ||
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| ====== Oil Tank's Role vs Wetsumping ====== | ====== Oil Tank's Role vs Wetsumping ====== | ||
| - | |||
| There should not be any pressure difference in the oil tank than the engine although it does transfer pressure. \\ | There should not be any pressure difference in the oil tank than the engine although it does transfer pressure. \\ | ||
| The oil tank vent line to the cam chest allows the pump to send oil and CC pressure to the tank without over pressurizing the inside. \\ | The oil tank vent line to the cam chest allows the pump to send oil and CC pressure to the tank without over pressurizing the inside. \\ | ||
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| If the cam chest is holding pressure, then your breather valve can not be venting properly. \\ | If the cam chest is holding pressure, then your breather valve can not be venting properly. \\ | ||
| - | Bottom line is that if the vent system is working properly, you shouldn't have excessive pressure build up in the oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87313)) \\ | + | Bottom line is that if the vent system is working properly, you shouldn't have excessive pressure build up in the oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/40457-whoa-oil-tank-vomits-oil?t=87313)) \\ |
| It has been said by many that lowering the oil level in the oil tank will stop oil puking out the breather. \\ | It has been said by many that lowering the oil level in the oil tank will stop oil puking out the breather. \\ | ||
| While this may work in application, by design, you should not have to lower the oil level. \\ | While this may work in application, by design, you should not have to lower the oil level. \\ | ||
| This practice is not just restricted to rubbermounts although due to the CC pressure change in 04, it is a more accepted practice. \\ | This practice is not just restricted to rubbermounts although due to the CC pressure change in 04, it is a more accepted practice. \\ | ||
| - | The tank acts as an oil / air separator like the breather valve but the air only expels the engine from the engine breather vent. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1971026&page=28)) \\ | + | The tank acts as an oil / air separator like the breather valve but the air only expels the engine from the engine breather vent. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/183021-1986-90-evo-sportsters-what-every-owner-should-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/page28?t=1971026&page=28)) \\ |
| ====== Lowering the oil level in the tank ====== | ====== Lowering the oil level in the tank ====== | ||
| - | |||
| ** *When you lower the oil level in the tank, you are just masking the real problem* ** . \\ | ** *When you lower the oil level in the tank, you are just masking the real problem* ** . \\ | ||
| Below are some arguments for lowering the oil level with responses below them. \\ | Below are some arguments for lowering the oil level with responses below them. \\ | ||
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| * All oil in the cam chest can be subject to being picked up into suspension no matter of it's origin. | * All oil in the cam chest can be subject to being picked up into suspension no matter of it's origin. | ||
| - It has been said that **Having too much oil in the tank will cause more blowby**. \\ | - It has been said that **Having too much oil in the tank will cause more blowby**. \\ | ||
| - | * Too much oil in the tank does not cause more blowby. ((bustert of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5750657&highlight=lower+oil+level#post5750657)) | + | * Too much oil in the tank does not cause more blowby. ((bustert of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-general-discussion-and-problems/196939-oil-in-air-cleaner?highlight=lower+oil+level#post4302422)) |
| * Oil in the engine must: | * Oil in the engine must: | ||
| * 1. Lube | * 1. Lube | ||
| Line 203: | Line 199: | ||
| * Blowby has some to do with oil puking out the breathers, but it doesn't cause it by itself. | * Blowby has some to do with oil puking out the breathers, but it doesn't cause it by itself. | ||
| * Oil puking out the breathers is an imbalance in the breathing system which may or may not have to do with the rings or valves. | * Oil puking out the breathers is an imbalance in the breathing system which may or may not have to do with the rings or valves. | ||
| - | * The oil level only matters if the tank has been overfilled past the top mark on the dipstick. ((Toejam503 of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5750657&highlight=lower+oil+level#post5750657)) | + | * The oil level only matters if the tank has been overfilled past the top mark on the dipstick. ((Toejam503 of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-general-discussion-and-problems/196939-oil-in-air-cleaner?highlight=lower+oil+level#post4302422)) |
| * This is easy to do if you check the oil level and fill the tank BEFORE heating up the engine to operating temperature. \\ See more about [[techtalk:ref:oil01#overfilling_the_oil_tank|Over filling the oil tank]] in the REF section of the Sportsterpedia. | * This is easy to do if you check the oil level and fill the tank BEFORE heating up the engine to operating temperature. \\ See more about [[techtalk:ref:oil01#overfilling_the_oil_tank|Over filling the oil tank]] in the REF section of the Sportsterpedia. | ||
| * Overfilling the oil tank can bring the level up over the vent to the crankcase. \\ This would stop up the vent to the cam chest, over-pressurize the tank and hinder scavenging from the sump. \\ Increased sump oil (not able to be scavenged fast enough) aides in oil suspension or air /oil density increasing crankcase pressure. \\ Increased crankcase pressure aides in oil puking out the vents. | * Overfilling the oil tank can bring the level up over the vent to the crankcase. \\ This would stop up the vent to the cam chest, over-pressurize the tank and hinder scavenging from the sump. \\ Increased sump oil (not able to be scavenged fast enough) aides in oil suspension or air /oil density increasing crankcase pressure. \\ Increased crankcase pressure aides in oil puking out the vents. | ||
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| * Lowering the amount of oil in the sump also leaves less oil there to get pulled up into suspension which thins out air / oil mist. | * Lowering the amount of oil in the sump also leaves less oil there to get pulled up into suspension which thins out air / oil mist. | ||
| * It's the more dense air / oil mist that is the problem, not the oil level in the tank. \\ | * It's the more dense air / oil mist that is the problem, not the oil level in the tank. \\ | ||
| - | * Many people say that it is important to leave plenty of empty space in your oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72099&highlight=wet+sumping&page=21)) \\ | + | * Many people say that it is important to leave plenty of empty space in your oil tank. ((Deimus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/36799-installing-the-ultimate-crankcase-vent-%C2%93how-to%C2%94/page21?t=72099&highlight=wet+sumping&page=21)) \\ |
| * If you don't have excess crankcase pressure, you don't have to do that. You can fill the oil tank to the full mark on the dipstick without any issue. | * If you don't have excess crankcase pressure, you don't have to do that. You can fill the oil tank to the full mark on the dipstick without any issue. | ||
| * The oil tank is a sealed space with a seal / O-ring on the dipstick. \\ The oil tank space is connected to the crankcase space via the vent hose that runs from the oil tank to the cam cover. \\ By filling the oil tank only half full, you create a larger air volume in the crankcase space itself. \\ This increased air volume can help buffer the pressure in an engine with only a slight problem with blow-by gasses combined with the restricted head vents. | * The oil tank is a sealed space with a seal / O-ring on the dipstick. \\ The oil tank space is connected to the crankcase space via the vent hose that runs from the oil tank to the cam cover. \\ By filling the oil tank only half full, you create a larger air volume in the crankcase space itself. \\ This increased air volume can help buffer the pressure in an engine with only a slight problem with blow-by gasses combined with the restricted head vents. | ||
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| ====== 2004-Up Oil Tank Leak Issue ====== | ====== 2004-Up Oil Tank Leak Issue ====== | ||
| - | |||
| The 2004-2009 oil tanks have had many problems with the seam between the top and bottom section leaking. \\ | The 2004-2009 oil tanks have had many problems with the seam between the top and bottom section leaking. \\ | ||
| Some have noticed this only during cold temperatures and some have had this problem at warmer temps. \\ | Some have noticed this only during cold temperatures and some have had this problem at warmer temps. \\ | ||
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| ==== 04-06 Oil Tank (62888-04) Internals ==== | ==== 04-06 Oil Tank (62888-04) Internals ==== | ||
| - | |||
| The pic below is an 04-06 oil tank with the top and bottom separated. You can see how high the oil has to rise to get to the vent tube. \\ | The pic below is an 04-06 oil tank with the top and bottom separated. You can see how high the oil has to rise to get to the vent tube. \\ | ||
| Oil basically has to fill up the small compartment from the left side to the first baffler first. \\ | Oil basically has to fill up the small compartment from the left side to the first baffler first. \\ | ||
| - | Click on a pic to enlarge: ((photos by cootertwo of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=148936)) \\ | + | Click on a pic to enlarge: ((photos by cootertwo of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/44728-stock-05-oil-tank-question?threadid=148936)) \\ |
| {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_3_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ \\ {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_1_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_2_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_4_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} | {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_3_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ \\ {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_1_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_2_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:engmech:oil_tank_4_by_cootertwo.jpg?direct&300|}} | ||
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| Next startup/heat cycle, the air in emulsion should burn off after the oil gets to operating temp. \\ | Next startup/heat cycle, the air in emulsion should burn off after the oil gets to operating temp. \\ | ||
| - | Click on a pic to enlarge: ((photos by npaisnel of the XLFRORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=74331&page=3)) \\ | + | Click on a pic to enlarge: ((photos by npaisnel of the XLFRORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/rubber-mount-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2004-2006/37658-new-oil-tank/page3?t=74331&page=3)) \\ |
| {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic5_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic6_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic4_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ | {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic5_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic6_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} {{:techtalk:ref:oil:07-09_xl_oil_tank_62888-04a_pic4_by_npaisnel.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ | ||
